By LizardKingLives

November 14, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this

Rob you are hating and you obvious can not comprehend simple math, either.I don’t mean to be hating on you but you’re not even reading your own argument. FYI-(this is very simple and I understand there are situations that may break from my simplistic explanation) everyone who earns gains on investments (other than retirement accts-depending on type of acct) pays capital gains whether you’re rich or poor and I do not care if only 1 in 7 Americans are investing their money because it is the same for everyone at this point. Even that retirement investment acct will be taxed, it is just deferred until retirement and then all gains are taxed as income (again depending on the type of acct). Everyone pays income taxes that earns a minimum amount. The more you make the more you pay. Everyone pays inheritance tax, the larger the estate the more you pay. In many cases the smaller estates get passed tax free. Everyone pays property tax, the bigger and more expensive the property the more you owe. Everyone pays sales tax, etc…etc…etc… What you’re forgetting is that wealthy Americans are paying income taxes, as well as their Capital Gains taxes on investments. In addition, their estates and property are more valuable so they typically get hit harder by Mr. Tax Man at this time as well. I still fail to see where Mr. Wealthy pays less then M. Average Joe. Also Rob, no one is saying the rich are not treated differently but in all honesty the old saying “Money talks, bullsh*t walks” is the type of society we live in and as a result those with money can provide themselves better opportunities, but that does not entitle you to feed off their hard work.

By Rob

November 13, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this

Lizard - actually, no - according to the independent Tax Policy Institute, fewer than one in seven individual income taxpayers reported taxable capital gains in 2006. Over half of taxpayers with gains had incomes below $75,000, but most capital gains were reported by very high income taxpayers. The 3 percent of returns with AGI over $200,000 reported 31 percent of AGI and 83 percent of capital gains; the 0.3 percent with AGI over $1,000,000 reported 15 percent of AGI and 61 percent of capital gains. Many more Americans accrue capital gains on corporate shares they hold within tax-deferred employer-sponsored retirement plans, but they do not pay capital gains tax on these gains. Lizard - I ain’t hating on the rich. All I’m telling you is fair is fair - and the 6 out of 7 Americans who do not report capital gains should not be asked to foot the bill for the lower taxes that one out seven maybe pay.

By Patty

November 13, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this

Rob you need to do better research or look at a tax table. Tax Brackets for 2008. A single person making $30k pays 15%. 32,550 to 78,850 is 25%. 78,850- 164,550 is 28%. 164,550-357,700 is 33% and higher than that is 35%

By LizardKingLives

November 13, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

Rob how much do you pay on your capital gains?The same 15% that is called capital gains tax…not your rich tax.The rich pay income taxes based on their income for the year which in percentage will be taxed at the highest tax level most likely.the inheretence tax is the same for them, only their estate will be taxed more because their estate will be greater.The rich is taxed the same as everyone else, maybe they are smarter and find the loop holes that are available to everyone to avoid a tax or a tax here but dont hate on them for being smart.If you want to pay capital gains taxes then start investing…FYI paying capital gains taxes actually sucks.You are very niave if you think anyone actually is getting away without paying their share of taxes.

By Rob

November 13, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

There are a few pretty misinformed beliefs here - the notion that anybody is talking about “penalizing” the rich is hogwash. All anybody is suggesting is that we stop treating them BETTER than 95% of the working population of the United States. What I mean is this - the super rich pay LESS taxes than you and I do. They pay 0% on some forms of income (like inheritance, (courtesy of President Bush) and only 15% on capital gains (what they get back from investment wealth, for example). You, however, if you are a working stiff -you get to pay a top tax rate of 39%. Think about that, for a minute. You earn $30K a year by the sweat of your brow and you get to return almost $12K of that to the federal government in the form of taxes. At the same time, some investor class individual (who probably inherited their wealth at 0% income tax in the first place) gets the same $30K, only as a “capital gain”. They pay only $4,500 vs. your $12K. On the same amount of income! The average taxpayer is getting screwed royally so that the top 5% don’t have to. And where do you think the administration is getting the money to put into the general warrant fund to send huge tax refunds to people who don’t need it? From you! And we wonder why we can’t keep bridges from collapsing into rivers, and why we can’t keep Amtrak trains on the rails, and why we can’t hire more teachers, etc. It’s because the Bush Administration places a higher priority on taking care of the richest of the rich than they do on basic equity in funding infrastructure.

By Mike

November 13, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

TRS, you seem to be implying with your rhetorical questions that these are things which have significant support and are serious proposals or views in the mainstream. “All the rich people’s fault”, “penalizing the rich will make things better”, “wage confiscation”??? I must have missed the communique from my liberal headquarters.

By TRS

November 13, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this

Certainly we are going through a tough time right now, but in the past 8 years we went through the .com bubble and 9/11 tanked the market as well. The market peaked at 14K and a whole lot of things seemed to be working - as a matter the fact the economy didn’t even look like it was going to be a major issue going into this election at the 1st part of the year. Now, we see its all the rich people’s fault. Certainly a few received compesation they didn’t deserve but most work hard for their money and the business owners have often taken great risk. Capitalism is not perfect - its just the best system when compared to all the others. So - how does penalizing or taxing the rich make things better now? Are you expecting the government to regulate wages so things are more equitable? I hear the concern between the “shrinking” middle class but how do you see it being fixed? Tax the rich? You could confiscate all their wealth and it would pay for the government about 8-9 months. Expanding the government. You get what you pay for and history shows you pay alot and get little. Get rid of cronism? The Democrats have as much support if not more on Wall Street and in boardrooms as do the Republicans. For example, Soros is one of the richest men in America. At the end of the day, we are only promised the right to pursue happiness - not the mechanisms which bring it about or the guarantee that it will occur. It is our responsibility to make our own way.

By LizardKingLives

November 13, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

Lloyd sounds like your a little bitter…here is a little lesson for everyone…DO NOT RELY SOLELY ON INVESTMENT IN YOUR CURRENT EMPLOYER YOU WILL GET BURNED…just ask former Enron employees.Do not mean to be so blunt but I hate it when someone tries to blame others for their mistakes.Take responsibility for the fact that you did not do your homework…bcause had you then you would have known that what you were doing was very risky.

By Michelle

November 13, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this

Things aren’t going to change overnight. We’re taking steps in the right direction, but it will take time to dig out of the hole that we’re in. More than anything, we need to put pressure on government to make sure they aren’t bailing out corporations to the detriment of regular American citizens.

By steve

November 13, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this

Mike for president 2012.

By LizardKingLives

November 13, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

“Cant get no satisfaction” shame on you.Where does it say you are entitled to satisfaction,entitled to vaca, entitled to big SUVs…no where.What is said you are entitled to the pursuit of all those things.We are so spoiled and I am glad we are in this crisis today, maybe we will learn from it.Live with your means & you will be amazed at how little this crisis is affecting some.That is not the amer way though, the amer way is to expect that we are entitled to everything.I understand there are those that stuff happened to beyond thier control, however what were they doing when things were good…most likely spending the money faster than it came in.I was there I did that…I learnd hard way that in order to have more you need to live on less.That way you have more $$$ to put to work for you.To those who say they cant save I say try because if you want to you can.It just takes will and the disciplin, that is all.For those who are bashing the weathy for being weathy, then shame on you to think you are entitled to what they worked hard for.They pay taxes like the rest of us why should they be expected to pay out a higher percentage of what they earn than you.

By Lloyd

November 13, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

The economic downturn has been going on for the past 40 or more years when Lyndon Banes Johnson cut a deal with the Corporations to allow them fo farm out the manufacturing industry overseas. The economic prosperity over these years did not exist exept on paper only. My former employer is one of the chief transgressors in all of this. The so-called record profits over these years were falsified on paper. 3 minus 2 equals 1 not 10 like they did their math. They manipulated the stock market to their advantage. Only the high command of the Company was allowed to cash in on their stocks. For those of us who had any stocks over these years, were not allowed to sell or cash in on them unless we were terminated from employment or retired. Even then we had to pay out substantial penalties per the IRS tax code unless you were 65 or older. When it came time for a significant number of employees to reach age 65, the company stocks crashed from $150 per share to 50 cents per share. Oh by the way, those people who were encouraged to invest over these years are SOL because when they filed for Chapter 11 Bankrupcy protection, the Bankrupcy Court Judge in Chicaco approved the termination of stock ownership for everybody except for the big whigs of the Company including all outsiders. This is exactly why the stock market is in such a termoil today. The lies and deception has caught up 40 years in the making. Remember what the Bible says: ‘God is not mocked, whatever a man sows that he shall also reap’. Welcome to the harvest. If Nazi-Germany imploded because of their lies and deception, our economy will also implode because of the lies and deception that has been practiced over the years.

By Mike

November 13, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

John, all of those things you cite, Iraq, Social Security (mainly Medicare), global warming, health care and gas/oil prices; they are all still crises. And they will all have to dealt with in an almost simultaneous manner by the next administration. You are most certainly correct that there has been a leadership vacuum in this country. And there is a share of blame to be laid at the feet of both parties. But we have what we have. And going forward it will be leadership which will be required for us to have any hope to begin resolving these issues. The main fault I see of the Bush administration in all of this is that they did not seek solutions which were most beneficial to all of the country. They catered to their corporate friends, as has often happened in many administrations but has been the hallmark of this one. The philosophy of “what’s good for our corporate friends is good for America” was proven disastrously wrong in this case. They lost sight of the rest of us and the importance of our role in what makes this country and economy run well. I find it quite ironic that you think we have just discovered “the truth as the 5% know - you have to take care of yourself, because the “Government” can’t do it all (or anything) most of the time.” Because it is now the 5% crowd, the “free-marketeers”, “no regulation is better”, “let us police ourselves” corporations who are now baying at the government trough. Pleading to be saved from their own irresponsible and cavalier decisions which, at the start, lined their pockets with billions in cash. And who, now that their self-constructed house of cards has come crashing down, so hypocritically see the government as “a good thing” and are pleading for their help. There has been a crowd of significant size in this country who have spent a generation trying to convince this country that government can do nothing right. And in many ways they have succeeded in burning this tome in peoples’ minds as conventional wisdom. They have had a vested financial interest in doing whatever it takes to throw off the bonds of any regulation, oversight and constraint. And in many ways they have succeeded. And now we have none other than Alan Greenspan, the “Free Market Messiah”, sitting before Congress and saying, in a nutshell, “I made a mistake thinking that it was a good idea for the markets to self-police”. I think it is quite presumptuous to allege that it is the American people who need to learn self reliance, when they have been the ones consistently delivering higher and higher productivity in this economy while receiving what has amounted to nothing in return for their efforts. Americans are most certainly the most independent in the world. Too bad we don’t hold corporations and their CEO’s to the same standard.

By Rob

November 13, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this

Mike hit it right on the head. Current adminstration tax policy and reduced oversight (read deregulation, or “smaller government” - whatever) on corporate inside dealing don’t just favor the “haves” in the battle of the haves/have-nots. The Bush programs have stacked the deck to the “have mores”, or Mike’s 5%. Going forward, look for this same demographic (top 5%) to try and stir up social conservative resentment to ANY policy or program proposal that attempts to restore equity to the Bush system - that left in place and unchecked - threatens to turn us into another Latin American style “republic”.

By John

November 13, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

America doesn’t do anything until there is a crisis. Now we have crises. Remember long ago when the crisis was - Iraq, no - social security, no - global warming, no - health care, no - cost of oil & gas, no - well, you can see where I’m going with this. Bush is no saint but the House and Senate leadership most certainly represent the “hotter regions” as they have done nothing if not exacerated problems. No leadership. And guess what, they’re still there!!! Incredible…Well Mike, you now know the truth as the 5% know - you have to take care of yourself, because the “Government” can’t do it all (or anything) most of the time. Can we hope for an American who is more independant tomorrow after this thought hits home? I pray for it.

By Swig

November 13, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

Mike, excellent and thoughtful commentary. I agree wholeheartedly. If you ask the upper 5% how the economy and our nation is faring,they are so blind that they will reply with “looks fine to me from my vantage point!” It will take considerable time and a concerted effort to re-focus our national priorities.

By Mike

November 13, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

Well, certainly, the American people have been way ahead of the curve on this. Much more than the Washington insiders and our President who continued to insist, in spite of much obvious evidence to the contrary, that “our economy is fundamentally strong”. It is not and has not been for a considerable time. Yes, but things have certainly been very good for the upper 5% in this country. And while those people have wallowed in piles of cash for a long time, the little people have been waiting patiently for a trace of that wealth to spill over and “trickle down”. And they are still waiting. People have finally come to the realization that their government has been lying to them all along. And, rightfully so, they are mad as hell. But we continue to watch, aghast, as our government falls all over itself to bail out the 5% crowd who got us into this mess to start with. The anger is palpable. So this recent election the people have decided, by and large, to cast out many of those who oversaw this disaster and enabled it by both their actions and their inactions. They have thrown their lot in with what they hope is a different crowd. Ones they pray will take the same care and concern for them that the previous group did for the precious upper 5% crowd. The only thing we have right now is a hope that things will different. But, will they be different? We can only wait and see. If history is any indicator there will likely be protracted battles over whose interests should be first served. And the outcome of that will tell the tale. Our Washington political elite ignore those of us in the 95% category at their own peril. Because without us as an enthusiastic and viable participant in this economy, there will be nothing for the 5% crowd to do but scramble with the rest of us for an ever shrinking piece of the pie. The American Dream still lives, but for most of us right now it is one which seems less likely every passing day.