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Hall of Fame baseball writer Hal McCoy has retired from the Dayton Daily News after covering the Cincinnati Reds for 37 years. Hal's blog, though, will continue to be a must-read for Reds fans. He'll share his thoughts on the team this season and will file updates from Great American Ball Park. You also can catch Hal in print every Sunday in his popular Ask Hal columnHome > Blogs > The Real McCoy | Cincinnati Reds baseball news > Archives > 2008 > September > 02 > Entry
CC Sabathia DIDN’T pitch a no-no
Baseball official scoring is a difficult task - one man’s error is another man’s hit.
Baseball official scoring is a difficult task, even if the official scorer pays attention. One time, years ago, I glanced down the press box at the official scorer. He was sleeping. Another time an official scorer was turned around talking to somebody in the second row when a play occurred. He didn’t see it.
Those were before the days of instant replay and television monitors in the press box. The guy had to guess to make his call.
Official scorers now have TV monitors in front of them. That’s the reason it takes several moments, or minutes, for an official scorer to make a call. He is gazing at the replay over and over before he makes his call.
So, shouldn’t he get it right?
The problem is that official scoring rules are not always black and white, and much of the time it comes down to the opinion of the official scorer and, as I said, one man’s error is another man’s hit. Or is it one man’s hit is another man’s error?
I always get a kick out of controversial calls. Players moan. Oh, how they moan. Cincinnati Reds official scorer Glenn Sample used to go into the clubhouse before and after games when he first started. He learned quickly. When players saw him, they moaned and groaned and complained about his calls.
So he quit going in. And I don’t blame him.
I’ve only been an official scorer twice. When I was National President of the Baseball Writers Association of America in 1997, it was my duty to be one of the two official scorers at the All-Star game in Cleveland and at the World Series between Cleveland and Florida. We called an error on Florida third baseman Bobby Bonilla. Most thought it should have been a hit. We didn’t change it. Stubborn.
Some players, managers or coaches even call the official scorer in the press box during the game to complain. Heck, one day I got a call in the press box and I wasn’t even the official scorer. I answered my phone and it was Reds shortstop Davey Concepcion. The scorer had ruled a ball he hit as an error. I answered the phone, and Concepcion said, “Hey, Mack-coy (he always called me Mack-coy), that was a hit.”
Ever diplomatic, I said, “Yeah, I agree. But I’m not the official scorer.”
We bring this up because of the CC Sabathia one-hitter/no-hitter - depending upon your viewpoint.
CC pitched a one-hitter against the Pirates and the one hit was one of those balls that is one man’s hit and another man’s error.
The ball was hit to the right of Sabathia, up the third-base line. He rushed after the ball and picked it up, with his back to first base. Ad he turned to throw, he dropped the ball. The official scorer called it a hit, not realizing it would be the only hit - although that shouldn’t matter. A hit is a hit and an error is an error.
I’ve seen that play dozens and dozens of times. A difficult play. A hurried play. CC had to scramble to get to the ball. He didn’t kick it. He didn’t let it go through his legs. He picked it up, then dropped it.
Nearly every time an official scorer will rule that a hit. It was a hit. I sympathize with CC and the Brewers, who are disputing the call and sending tapes to the Major League Baseball for review.
There is no way MLB can reverse that call. There is no way a guy should be given a no-hitter several days after the game is over and the box score says he pitched a one-hitter.
One problem is that nowhere in the scorer’s manual does it exactly describe that play and tell the scorer what to call. The scorer had to judge degree of difficulty on the play and the distance CC covered to get the ball. It was a difficult play. It was a hit. Get over it, Brewers fans. You won the game, CC got the win. That should be what is important.
Some scoring rules or assumptions are stupid and one happened with the Reds Sunday against the Giants. If a player doesn’t touch a ball (unless it goes through his legs), it is always ruled a hit.
On Sunday with the bases loaded, Cincinnati’s Joey Votto hit a fly ball to left field. A fly ball. Left fielder Fred Lewis started back. Then he came in. He did a 180, such a nifty 180 he should have been wearing a tutu. He stuck up his glove and missed the ball. But didn’t touch it.
The scorer had to rule it a two-run double. It should have been an error. Even Adam Dunn catches that ball. Lewis flummoxed that play from every point of the compass. But Votto gets a two-run double and the poor pitcher who got Votto to hit that fly ball, gets two earned runs tagged onto his record.
That rule/assumption (whatever scorers call it) needs to be changed. If a defensive player screws up a play, he should be charged with an error. These guys are professionals and are supposed to make routine defensive plays.
It’s hilarious. A pitcher always think a ball his fielders mess up should be ruled an error. The fielder thinks it should be a hit. Unless you are a pitcher throwing a no-hitter and you don’t make a difficult play and it is ruled a hit. Then you want the error. But only if it’s the ONLY hit of the game.
Amazing.
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Comments
By BrarHopper
September 6, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this
Ah heer ye, Wizert. Ah allus go ort ta deyten to get me some corn squeezins…or crack…or authentic mexican food in east deyten… theys all plentiful. ya, i ain’s een no stachoo uh you yet thar. they just ain’t got ‘em no braims there in the big city!
By Wizard
September 6, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
Well now, went up thar to Dayton town ta see ifin they had put up a bronze memorial ta me outside that stadium that wizard built…wouldja believe it ain’t up yet? Dang! I’ll check again next week.
By BrarHopper
September 6, 2008 2:08 AM | Link to this
Wull now, Wizert, whar the hail yuh been, thar, buuuuddddddyyy? Ya been ort’a Franklin or down’t Middletown buyin’ ye sum farwerks? I missed, ye, boa! Ah only seen you oncet!
By Wizard
September 5, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this
Brarhopper for a good ol’ country boy, ya sure do have a way with words! Been gone awhile—but you always make it worthwhile in coming back…
By BrarHopper
September 5, 2008 3:19 AM | Link to this
Boy oh boy, Matt, you are WAY off base with your accusations and bashing here. You referred to me by name FIVE times in your little paranoid mini rant. I did NOT refer to you (unless you are, in fact, “you-know-who”). I suppose your super blog cop powers now include ESP and clairvoyance and mind-reading. Stop being king baby and try to grow up enough to stop holding everyone here hostage to your tirades. Your childish victim role is real old and tiresome. And your ALL CAPS anger shouts are just juvenile. I remind you that YOU, Matt, and you alone were singled out by our host, Mr. McCoy, for your behavior and inappropriate references. Knock it off before you ruin this for all of us. Or is that what you’re secretly after? You wanna know what the problem is then look in the mirror. (I’ll bet anything you came back the next day to see if anybody responded to your most recent manic nonsense).
By azabyss
September 4, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this
Dunn bashing is so passe… read this article at FJM… http://www.firejoemorgan.com/search/label/paul%20daugherty “Obviously the first thing you do after reading something like this is check out Dunn’s numbers this year. Find out how many RBI singles he has with RISP and two outs. In the back of your mind, you get greedy. You’re hoping for something like 25 singles in 70 such at bats. But I’ll admit when I’m beat (sort of). You know how many singles Dunn has this year with two outs and runners in scoring position? One. Wa-unnnnnn. …no! Wait. Let’s look at the rest of Dunn’s line with 2 outs and RsISP: In 37 AB’s (pretty small sample, of course): .216 / .453 / .730 (!) (1.183 OPS) 6 HR, 20 RsBI, 15 R, 13 BB Dude was pretty… good when it mattered, if you think that’s when it mattered. Now, everyone, take a nap.” My own addition; Simple math - a walk extends an inning by nature of achieving first base. It might move a runner from 1st up or it might not score a runner from second. But either way, it extends an inning. Now, haow many people would rather have up a guy that hits .280 and has an OBP of .290 with two outs, one out, whatever? That player is 71% likely to make an out in that situation (unquantifiable as to how many GIDP that would lead to or anything else.) Dunn, guaranteed, every time at the plate with proper sample size, will produce out NO MORE than 61.8% of the time. Or, rather, a 38.2% success rate over a 29% success rate. Just what fans want out of a guy mystifies me. Sure am glad he was ran out of town. Manny, a RHH but similar in defense, etc, will post numbers of .410 OBP/.592/1.002 with 40/132. Dunn .382/.520/.902 40/96. RBI numbers can easily be attributed to quality of players surrounding Manny as opposed to the Reds anemic on-base producing line-ups. So the Reds wanted no part of a guy that produced at about 90% of the level, on a vastly inferior team, to a sure fire HOFer who played with a much stronger supporting cast? Brilliant wants and needs Reds nation.
By michael
September 4, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this
Matt, You always reply to their posts, therefor asking for what you get from them. They are correct in that you have to counter punch everyone’s opinions. I don’t always agree with everyone, but I don’t tell everyone that they are “wrong” about everything. And please don’t discuss anything other than Reds Baseball on this blog.
By Matt
September 4, 2008 6:15 AM | Link to this
Let me explain something to you there smartie. I said NOTHING to Brarhopper, he came after ME. Get your nose out of his hind end for a second or two and get that. I ignored Brarhopper completely and made no reference to him until HE came after ME on this blog. As far as Hal only naming me in his post a few days ago, if you honestly think that you and your friend Brarhopper have no fault for any problems on this blog, you need a rude awakening. IT IS YOUR FRIEND BRARHOPPER THAT HA STIRRED UP THE PROBLEMS AGAIN. Wake up, read the damn posts, and don’t talk to me until you have something intelligent to say. Again, just so you can understand, your best bud in the whole wide world Brarhopper, BRARHOPPER and only Brarhopper came after me. This is something you two haven’t figured out yet. I’ll post a thousand times a day if I want to. I didn’t disrespect you, so how dare you two disrespect and gang up on me. If you don’t like me posting here, take your garbage drivel elsewhere, because I’m going NOWHERE.
By HuberTucky
September 4, 2008 1:25 AM | Link to this
The blog cop has risen from the dead again! You’re doing it again, matt, having to make a comment on everyones opinion again. Next thing we know Hal will be shutting the blog down. He specifically told YOU to shut your mouth Matt, not anyone else, he singled YOU out Matt, so STFU already before you murder this blog for good!
By Matt
September 3, 2008 11:45 PM | Link to this
What’s that supposed to mean, AP? To just let Brarhopper have his way?
By AP-FLORIDA
September 3, 2008 11:26 PM | Link to this
Yes he has, and please sit down Matt
By Matt
September 3, 2008 11:16 PM | Link to this
The troublemaker of this blog stands up again.
By BrarHopper
September 3, 2008 11:13 PM | Link to this
Birdie, you-know-who knows more than anybody else about everything. OF COURSE he knows more than the peoiple who compile statistics, managers, GMs, and everyone else. He’s the expert here! He would disagree with you if you told him you thought he was handsome and intelligent! There is no winning with such a person, and no reasoning with such a person. Now you’ll be accused of being difficult. Gawd knows what I’ll be called or accused of. Ho hum. Yawn.
By Matt
September 3, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this
BIRDIE, I read Huber’s post about Pitcher Abuse Points. They mean absolutely nothing to me. I wonder where managers and pitchers were in the days before Pitcher Abuse Points. It all seems a little far-fetched to me. I called your comments ignorant BIRDIE because every reputable source, namely the players themselves (Wood and Prior) that Baker was accused of “ruining”, have all come out and categorically denied that anything like that happened. I don’t see where the evidence is that Baker has overused Arroyo, Cueto, Volquez, or any other of the Reds pitching staff. As far as Harang being used in the 18 inning game, Baker didn’t force Harang to pitch that game. Harang came and volunteered to do it. The Reds were running out of pitchers and players in that game. It’s easy to be critical, and to play Monday Morning Quarterback, but the Reds had a game to win that day. Who was supposed to know how long the game was to go on for? Baker made the decision he made because he obviously felt that was the best decision at the time. Whether that game directly hurt Harang or not is arguable. But I hardly believe that Harang was “ruined” in that start, or that Baker has abused his pitchers at all this season. It just doesn’t seem to me that, other than hocus-pocus “Pitcher Abuse Points”, there is any evidence whatever that Baker has harmed or overused his pitching staff this season.
By BIRDIE41
September 3, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this
Matt, Since you think that I am all wrong about Dusty’s handling of the pitchers please read today’s comments by HuberTucky about the Red’s pitchers.Now you can call someone else names(like ignorant)besides me for posting something against Dusty’s handling of the pitchers. Also you still need to read the SN copy about how Harang was affected by Dusty’s using him in the 18 inning game!!
By donb51
September 3, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
Hal, So many points to be made from this article - subtle but important points nevertheless. Maybe in cases like this no-hitter, you can have a panel of official scorers to rule - especially if it is IMPORTANT - like the difference between a no-hitter or not. It is better to get it right after the fact for posterity rather than standing on error for old times sake. Related to this is what you said about Adam Dunn - “Even Adam Dunn catches that ball.” This is curious coming from one who has steadfastly defended Adam Dunn’s super stardom wherein super stardom, by definition, includes the ability to play defense, not just offense - one must be multi-dimensional to be a super star. If, then, you can stop and look back at events in context, then you can surely see that Adam Dunn’s walks were NOT an asset to the Reds - as the Reds were not geared to take advantage of those walks. Factor in walks where nothing happened and Dunn’s average goes to .185 or so. What does that tell you about his overall usefullness to the Reds? Would you even hire someone that you KNEW would hit a homer on an average of .185 times while playing the field poorly? And that is given him the benefit of the doubt because he doesn’t even homer at a .185 percentage! He is/was and forever will be ONE-Dimensional. Hey, but, one man’s garbage is another man’s treasure.
By HuberTucky
September 3, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
Agree with bobs. (My apologies for posting this 2x but had it in wrong spot)… Anyway, have you ever heard of Pitcher Abuse? I hadn’t until I read Brian Stevenson, PA SportsTicker Staff Writer. His words: “The Reds have plenty of young talent, but time will tell whether manager Dusty Baker has done any long-term damage to his stud pitchers. Both Volquez and Cueto, along with Harang and Bronson Arroyo, rank in the top 35 in Pitcher Abuse Points, a statistic compiled by Baseball Prospectus to gauge the wear and tear placed on a pitcher’s arm over the course of the season.”
By bobs
September 3, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this
I would rather not see Volquez get 20 wins…two more starts and would shut him down. With Cueto, just dont think I would take the chance. I dont really care that these guys are “healthy” at the moment, its more that they have not been in this position before. They have both put in quality innings, had quality seasons, and have gotten great experience for next year. I think the potential negative could be far worse then getting five more starts.
By somethingbetter
September 3, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
I like the fact that the Brewers mgmt is supporting their pitcher (and their team) by appealing the decision. How many other clubs would appeal the call for one of their pitchers? I just wonder what kind of quote Dusty Baker would come up with…makes me laugh just thinking of his absurdities.
By Randy
September 3, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this
Volquez doesn’t get much run support? HA HA Go back and look at the first half.Volquez has enjoyed the most run support of any of the other starters for the Reds.Webb will probably get it but if Lincecum finishes strong he gets my vote.He’s pitched 190 innings which equals out to about 6 and a half innings a start,better ERA,over 200 strikeouts.
By Mike-Cinci
September 3, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this
I agree with Steven Ross observation on Volquez and the Cy Young award. Unless he collapses it probably goes to Brandon Webb who is 19-6 with 3.19 ERA. Dempster, 15-5, 2.95. Lincecum 15-3, 2.60. Haren 14-7, 3.69. Sanatana 14-5, 3.31. Volquez 16-5, 3.04. Edison Volquez has been very impressive and deserves serious consideration. Lincecum has had quite a year as well.
By Steven Ross
September 3, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
Michael wrote: maybe I’m biased, but I would give Volquez the Cy Young. He has pitched very well for this awful team. He won’t win but I give him a serious nod too for simply pitching in very hitter friendly GABP. He also doesn’t get much run support so an arguement can be made but if I had to pick, Tim Lincecum of the Giants has been the NL’s best pitcher by a mile the past six weeks. Lights out for another awful team.
By michael
September 3, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this
maybe I’m biased, but I would give Volquez the Cy Young. He has pitched very well for this awful team. I would like to see if anyone else would have the same stats pitching for the Reds this year.
By Randy
September 3, 2008 8:19 AM | Link to this
On Votto’s “charitable” double and ensuing RBIs the ball did hit him, just below his glove on his left wrist.In fact I thought it to be quite obvious.
By Kevin
September 3, 2008 6:48 AM | Link to this
Maybe they`ll toss him the NL Cy Young award to make it up to him….
By BrarHopper
September 3, 2008 2:08 AM | Link to this
Okay, everyone, let’s wrap it up now. The official blog scrorer has told us this discussion is over…”The scorer did get it wrong, but it’s time to move on.” And being the quinessential expert on everything, HE ought to know! So that, as they say, is that!
By Gary Maloy Jr.
September 3, 2008 1:16 AM | Link to this
I haven’t taken time to read the other comments, but I saw the play 7 or 8 times on Sportscenter. Yes, it was a tough play, yes, Sabathia picked the ball and dropped it. My opinion though, is that if he’d turned and fired, he would have thrown the guy out easily. E-1. No-hitter. BUT. MLB mustn’t change the ruling. The official scorers explanation was sufficient. The guy thought it over and his reasoning is good enough for me. But, if I’d been the official (or unofficial) scorer…
By Carl's Little Brother
September 3, 2008 12:37 AM | Link to this
Off the subject, but still related, about pitching,,,can Volquez get 20 wins this year? With 16 now, what does he have, 6 more starts?
By Matt
September 2, 2008 11:32 PM | Link to this
You are exactly right, rob. For a team in the hunt for the playoffs, personal stats should not be that important or that big of a deal. What is important is the team, and it’s accomplishments. What happened in that Pittsburgh-Milwaukee game is what happened. A winning team with a winning attitude should be looking forward, and preparing themselves for October, not worrying about the obvious error by Sabathia on Sunday. If you looked at the replay it is frankly obvious, with all due respect to Laroche, that had Sabathia made the play cleanly he would have easily thrown Laroche out. The scorer did get it wrong, but it’s time to move on.
By Mr. Baseball
September 2, 2008 11:27 PM | Link to this
In the heydey of Koufax and Drysdale, the LA pitching staff consistently led the NL in pitchers’ ERA, partly because they had good pitchers but also because the official scorer in L.A. always ruled close fielding calls (for both teams) as errors. The Dodger organization wanted to promote their pitching prowess, but Dodger hitters were often shortchanged because, in order to be consistent, the scorer often took away hits they might get in other cities. In 1970s and 1980s, the Cardinals always had somebody contending for the batting crown — Keith Hernandez, Willie McGee, Ted Simmons, Ken Oberkfell, etc. The Cardinal organization wanted to promote their hitters so the official scorer in St. Louis ruled close calls as base hits. Marty Brennamen used to complain notoriously about weird scoring calls in St. Louis, but Reds hitters loved them. If C.C’s play had happened in Los Angeles back in the day, it would have been scored an error. If it happened in St. Louis, it would have definitely been a hit.
By rob in stl
September 2, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this
What amazes about that Sabathia situation is Yost being so vocal about it. As manager of a team in the hunt for the playoffs doesn’t he have bigger fish to fry?
By Arizona Pat
September 2, 2008 6:03 PM | Link to this
I agree, they should not change it after the fact. Did they complain in the inning that it happened? I doubt it. Who hires the official scorer? I think they should be league officials, not employees of the home team.
By patbut
September 2, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this
if there would of been another hit earlier/later in the game - this would not even be an issue - 99.9% of the time that’s a hit - sure it would not of been an error in Mil - I guess you could call it “home field advantage”
By D8Nkenny
September 2, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
“That rule/assumption” that a ball that goes untouched is a hit is a joke. I agree, if the play should have been made it is an error, if the fielder touched th ball or not.
By Rob
September 2, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
I think I’d have more sympathy for Sabathia if it weren’t his own potential error that resulted in the hit.