You've been spotted: River Days
.JPG)
Ohio State vs. Ohio
Kings Marching Invitational
Hall of Fame baseball writer Hal McCoy is in his 36th year of covering the Cincinnati Reds, the longest tenure for any active writer covering one team. Counting spring training and postseason games, McCoy has covered more than 7,000 major-league baseball games, written close to 18,000 baseball stories and eaten enough hot dogs to give Babe Ruth indigestion.Home > Blogs > The Real McCoy | Cincinnati Reds baseball news > Archives > 2008 > July > 02 > Entry
A tale of pitching coaches
A day off and a fortunate choice, judging by what happened at Great American Ball Park Tuesday — a 6-5 11-inning loss to the Pittsburgh Pirates. Back to last place.
Amazing. They tied it in the ninth, they tied it again in the 10th, they have the tying and winning runs on base in the 11th after scoring a run, but with two outs Corey Patterson is at the plate.
Need I say more? Game over. Reds lose.
Some of you keep calling for the removal of pitching coach Dick Pole and want Leo Mazzone to replace him. Mazzone was the pitching guru for that great pitching staff in Atlanta during the ’90s.
Permit me to point out this little gem. Everybody knows Greg Maddux is one of baseball’s all-time best pitchers, right? No question.
Maddux pitched when Mazzone was pitching coach in Atlanta and he pitched when Pole was the pitching coach for the Chicago Cubs.
Guess who Maddux said was the best pitching coach he ever worked with?
“Dick Pole is the best pitching coach I ever had,” said Maddux.
That’s good enough for me.
Some of you would like to see Mario Soto as pitching coach. And there is no question he would be a good one, especially with the Latin players. He already is a mentor to Johnny Cueto and Edinson Volquez.
But Soto prefers working mostly at the Reds academy in his native Dominican Republic with occasional tours of the Reds’ minor league teams and an occasional stop with the Reds to counsel Cueto and Volquez.
To me, Soto was one of the best pitchers in Reds history, a mean son-of-a-sea serpent on the mound who wasn’t afraid to throw inside and knock down hitters who got too comfortable in the batter’s box or dug in too deeply with their spikes.
And he did it basically with two pitches — a better-than-average fastball and a change-up some people say was the best change-up in baseball history — a pitch he taught Cueto.
Soto suffered from pitching for some of the worst teams in recent Reds history. The year they lost 101 games (1982), Soto was 14-13 with a 2.73 ERA. They finished last again in 1983 and Soto was 17-13 with a 2.70 ERA. They were fifth in 1984 and he was 18-7 with a 3.53 ERA.
Now that’s what you call some kind of pitching.
Soto once came within one out of a perfect game, but with two outs in the ninth George Hendrick of the St. Louis Cardinals hit a home run off him, “Because I was stupid enough to shake off the catcher and throw a dumb slider,” he said.
What kind of competitor was he?
Dave Bristol, a former Reds manager, was a master bench jockey, throwing epithets and insults at opposing players. When he was a coach with another team he was on Soto unmercifully from the dugout when Soto was pitching.
It wasn’t a good day for Soto and when he got knocked out of the box he went to the clubhouse telephone and phoned the other team’s dugout, challenging Bristol to meet him under the stands.
Bristo’s momma didn’t raise a stupid son. Bristol refused and when the game was over he hid in the clubhouse while Soto was outside the door demanding his appearance.
“If I showed up, he would have killed me,” said Bristol.
Bristol was deathly afraid of snakes — any kind, even the common garden snake. One spring training, when Bristol was coaching third base for the Reds, a player surreptitiously slipped a rubber snake into the coaching box between innings.
When Bristol went to the box and saw the snake, he set a 20-yard dash record to the dugout and refused to return to the coaching box until somebody removed the rubber snake.
“Rubber, ceramic or papier mache, I ain’t going anywhere near no snake,” said Bristol.
When Bristol managed the San Francisco Giants, they went into a long losing streak and before one road game Bristol scheduled an early practice. He scheduled two buses - one for the practice and one for the time when the bus would regularly leave.
Said Bristol, “The first bus is for all those who need extra practice and it leaves at 1 p.m. The empty bus leaves at 5 p.m.”
Bristol was the manager of the Reds in 1968 when I covered my first major-league game. I was a sub that day for our regular beat writer, Jim Ferguson. Gary Nolan was suffering from a sore arm and was scheduled to throw in the bullpen that day and Ferguson told me, “Be sure to ask Bristol how Nolan did.”
The Reds won that day, 1-0, so after the game I trudged to the clubhouse and with the other writers went into Bristol’s office. Trying to be the great reporter, I asked the first question. “How did Nolan do today?”
Bristol bristled. His face turned red. He sputtered and spluttered. “We just won a great g-damn game, 2-1, and you’re asking me about g-damn Nolan?”
Scared the beejezus out of me. I think I covered four more games before I ever asked Bristol another question.
Many years later, when Bristol was back with the Reds as a coach, I told him that story about being a cub reporter covering my first game and how he blasted me into silence for several games.
Bristol laughed and said, “I used to love to intimidate young reporters.”
Man, did it ever work.
Permalink | Comments (26) | Post your comment |
Comments
By Gary Maloy Jr
July 2, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this
Okay, Hal. Your first game, where Bristol barked at you… Did the Reds win 1-0 or 2-1. I thought maybe the point was that Bristol didn’t even know the final score, but wasn’t sure after having read through your blog. Can’t understand how bad umpires are allowed to continue blowing calls. Fairchild needs to be deep-sixed off the stern of an aircraft carrier.By Steve
July 2, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
You know, I was never into blogs until Hal’s. Anywho, I don’t see the hub-bub about Pole. Pitching, for a change, ain’t our problem. Suddenly we can’t score. If there was one truth to the Reds in recent years, it was that we knocked the snot out of the ball. Now we get better on the mound and our bats are swiss cheese. Something isn’t right and I would hope someone knows what that is and is trying to do something about it. If someone would communicate on what that is, maybe more fans will show up for games. Until then- crickets and tumbleweed (unless the Cubs are in town, puke.) And for what it is worth, I love Jr.. I am happy he came home. I hope he stays. He is a man’s man. Family first. Not to mention one of the best we have ever seen. I hope when he walks away he knows that real Reds fans appreciated everything he did and tried to do for this team/city. Most of which we probably don’t even know about. It’s not his fault we never put a championship team around him, like he was promised. And like we were promised.By Jack
July 2, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this
mr. baseball, my guess is that as soon as someone gets ejected, the play on the field is dead and no advancement (or the attempt) would be allowed by any player.By Nick W
July 2, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this
Y-city jim i agree i would have loved to see dunn batting in the 11th instead of patterson but if dunn would have stayed in and was on thrid u think that would have brought the infield in with dunn at third instead of corey and that grounder that phillips hit would have been caught and there is no way dunn would have scored so it worked in that inning but not in the 11th i guess thats the chance u take..and did anybody see the lastest sports illustrated that had corey and his brother part of the players who were HOT right now i have no idea what who is writing for si but i don’t consider batting .150 all year as being hot right now i just thought that was funny to see..By tom
July 2, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this
As long as Baker, Pole and Jacoby are leading this team the Reds are stuck in mediocrity.By Florida Buckeye
July 2, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this
Mr. Baseball: I believe the answer is, that as soon as the Umpire threw EE out of the game, the ball was no longer in play because it touched a player who is no longer eligible on the field; that is, the ball went out of play…But, I dunno?!?By Beard
July 2, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this
Hal thanks for the update on Soto. I wondered why the Reds hadn’t brought him on and moved Pole to bench coach and it appears that Soto would rather be able to spend time in the Dominican (I assume that is where his family is) and you have to respect that. Hopefully he can continue to make one or two appearances a month to keep Cueto and Volquez sharp.By Y-City Jim
July 2, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this
Question: Has taking Adam Dunn out for defensive or base running purposes every paid off? I sure would have liked to have seen Dunn at the plate in the 11th inning in that situation last night.By Jim
July 2, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this
I agree with some of the readers, it really p**d me off the other night to see Votto not even try to lay down a bunt, and then he looked like he was mad that the sign came into him. I really like him as a player, but you know what, the problem with the Reds is they don’t play as a team enough. The only slogan in the clubhouse should be: “for the good of the team!”By Mike-Cinci
July 2, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
It is not the manager or coaches fault the Reds don’t win enough. This team has a talent problem. Junior needs to be moved to another team. This will allow Baker to play Dunn, Hairston, Bruce in the outfield and Keppinger at shortstop. This line-up would still not be good enough but it will give us (and Reds management) a better chance to evaluate which of these guys should be part of the Reds future. Unfortunately I don’t see Junior voluntering to take one for the good of the organization though I think it would be wonderful for Junior to be on a team with a chance for the playoffs and World Series. The Reds outfield of Dunn, Bruce, and Griffey is below average both offensively and defensively. Catching is way below average. The only infield position where the Reds have an above average player is second base with Phillips. The problem is talent.By HuberTucky
July 2, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this
Folks, this game was winnable for the Reds. But sadly, it struck me early on with several flubbed opportunities to score and score big that this team had LOSS programmed into their psyches. If the Reds can’t beat the Pirates with their friggin’ ace on the mound, what hope is there for this club? This is the kind of game against the kind of team that the Reds MUST find a way to win if they are in the least bit serious about a future. But this game was lost. R=This team is like an old junker car…tweak here and there to keep ‘er running but it’s constantly breaks down and needs new parts and rarely runs on all cylinders. This is very very tiring. They beat the Yankees and couldn’t win this game against the Pirates? Weathers? Where was Burton? Affeldt? Why didn’t Kepp start? It’s like Dusty is trying to sabotage things. Another battle of the Titans tonight, folks. And Dan, thanks for that GREAT Pat Williams quote! Bingo!By Jack
July 2, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this
Trying to think in the last 10 or so years the number of players that I had the least amount of faith in when they cam up to bat. LaRue used to be number 1, but he would not be batting leadoff after having witnessed the Corey Patterson era. Is there a magic number that he has to get below before he is released…170, maybe .150.By Mr. Baseball
July 2, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
When Mr. Baseball was just a little jasper, his dad used to quiz him with questions about interpretations of baseball rules. Here’s the kind of question he might have asked: Last night in the sixth inning, Adam LaRoche doubled and scored Jason Bay. The Pirates’ Ryan Doumit went from first to third on the play, rounded third base too far, and the Reds made a play on him. As Doumit tried to dive back into the base, Edwin Encarnacion caught the ball and tried to make a diving tag on Doumit. Third base umpire Chad Fairchild called Doumit safe although replays showed Encarnacion had clearly made the tag. Encarnacion jumped up and began arguing the call with Fairchild, who immediately ejected Encarnacion from the game. At this time, the ball was still in Encarnacion’s glove and time has not been called on the field. Here’s the question: Imagine at this moment, that Doumit would have decided to make a break for home plate. Encarnacion takes the ball out of his glove and throws to catcher David Ross who tags Doumit before he crosses home plate. What’s the call?By Nick W
July 2, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this
i don’t know much about leo mazzone i think u could have any decent pitching coach for atlanta when they had those three hall of famers pitching and be sucessful so has he been with any other team who didn’t have as much talent as atlantas staff and was sucessful? now to the game i liked how mad edwin got at that horrible call at third i don’t know what he said but that ump throw him out really quick and i think if a player gets thrown out the manger should go and argue the same point and get thrown out to thats defending your players dusty just walked out there and talked to the ump and walked back to the dugout..see i turned off the game when i saw david weathers come out of the bullpen and and pitch in the 11th with affeldt still sitting in the bullpen i did not get that at all weathers came in and gave up a single double and triple to the first three batters how many times have we brought weathers in with a tie game or were up one and he gives up the lead i think in almost all of his apperance he gives up at least one run and then we brought in affeldt and he struck out the batter with a man on thirdBy MAC
July 2, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this
Good pt on Maddux and Pole. Nevertheless, a ML pitching coach shouldn’t have to teach a pitcher at this level a proper wind-up, how to throw a breaking ball or how to bunt. All that type of stuff is done in the minor leagues; someone in Pole’s position simply smooths things out, thightens things up and works more on the mental side (strategy) than the fundamental mechanics. Unfortuanately, this isn’t true in Cincy and hasn’t been for quite some time. I think Krivsky? was trying to get this fixed, but wasn’t given enough time or freedom to get it done? Overall, our pitching has been good enough to win many more games, but how does one team have so many guys who can’t or won’t get a bunt down when needed or shorten up their swings and try hit the ball the other way to avoid so many Ks? IMHO, a lot it comes down to attitude & a number of our so called StarS? need a quick & stern adjustment in that area if you ask me. You can either come out early for bunting practice, tee and short toss work and try to get better, or you can start running those poles and park your *ss down at the end of the bench! It would be different if our StarS where successful w/ their approach, but clearly they haven’t been to this point and it’s hurting THE TEAM!By Mike
July 2, 2008 8:55 AM | Link to this
Reds had won 3 straight. Fans were getting excited with Volquez on the mound and 4 in a row. Baker changed the line up, took out Keppinger in the 2 spot and sat him on the bench. Too many people to play, got to keep em happy, Kepp needed a rest..didn’t want to over do it, BUT he came in the 6th inning and played the rest of the game….( hope he didn’t over do it! ) you name it, he always has some reason to change success. if it ain’t broke don’t fix it!By Y-City Jim
July 2, 2008 8:54 AM | Link to this
So twenty years ago Dick Pole was successful. That doesn’t translate to know when he seems like a very tired pitching coach. Mr. Redlegs, I have to agree about Rick Peterson.By donb51
July 2, 2008 8:42 AM | Link to this
“Dick Pole is the best pitching coach I ever had,” said Maddux. Yes, and my son says I’m the best father he ever had. Point being, if you’re great in the first place, a coach ain’t going to make that much difference - everyone looks good when you’re great. But what about those who are not so great? How many fathers or coaches come through when someone really needs help? A good coach, or dad, will spend the extra time with those that need it. A great coach will actually turn that person around.By JustAFan
July 2, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this
Why did Griffey not wait and greet Phillips after his HR? Is there a “secret” squabble between the two?By Florida Buckeye
July 2, 2008 8:03 AM | Link to this
Hal I have to agree with you…As soon as I saw CP come up to the plate, I put my thumb on the remote cause it was over… It seems to me that the Reds are on a verge of a precipice…any slight negative play, call, decision, becomes an instant snowball, and an excuse for a loss…It must be a terrible strain on pitchers knowing that extra runs are going to be given away, and that they’d better be perfect because we’re not gonna score any runs.The result: An overpressing player - pitching, fielding, hitting - doesn’t perform as well…By Dan
July 2, 2008 7:42 AM | Link to this
The quote on my desk calendar yesterday sums up this team pretty well: “We can’t win at home. We can’t win on the road. As general manager, I just can’t figure out where else to play” -Pat WilliamsBy choad
July 2, 2008 7:15 AM | Link to this
my only issue with pole is that he sits on his a**e in the dugout until it’s too late sometimes…last night with volquez a perfect example…the kid was visibly rattled but pole didn’t come out to shut the barn door till the cows were already outBy MAC
July 2, 2008 3:27 AM | Link to this
Pole, Mazzone, Gullett or whomever; I don’t know who is best, but I do know there are a number of young players (pitchers & positional) in the Reds organization who simply can’t and don’t execute the fundamentals of the game on a consistent basis. More importantly, the coaches don’t seem capable of helping them much because we rarely see any improvements? It really leaves a fan scratching his head at times and asking what the h*ll is being taught in the minor leagues? To make matters worse, it’s been that way for quite some time. I think a lot of it has to do w/ the types of players the Reds are attracted to and draft; forget the proto typical guy w/ great intangibles and measurables and recruit a few more players who HAVE proven they CAN play the game “the right way” IMO. Last but not least, is there any rhythm or reason on how Dusty comes up w/ a batting order; does he have a dart board in his office w/ all the players’ names on it or what? To hear him talk about only makes it worse because much of his reasoning (stats) are incorrect or just don’t make sense. How do you not start Keppinger (great OBP & AVG against lefties) in tonight’s game and why continue to put struggling hitters in the middle of the lineup? What has N. Hopper done to Dusty; two LH SPs in 2 nights and Hopper can’t get a start out of it…truly mind numbing.By Mr. Redlegs (Original)
July 2, 2008 2:58 AM | Link to this
The screams for leo Mazzone. Leo’s great but he’s a “system” pitching coach and not a technician, per se. He had all that talent in Atlanta that was mostly raised through their farm system and his pitching program based on the great Johnny Sain’s theories and between-starts throwing philosophies. That’s why broken down vets could go there and be successful but very few left Atlanta to be as good. Similar to St. Louis’ Dave Duncan, who is more of a technician. Yet, Mazzone’s program didn’t work with Baltimore’s young pitchers, who had not come up in such a system and didn’t have near as much talent. The guy who’s out there and is younger and more intriguing is Rick Peterson, recently fired by the Mets. He groomed all that great young pitching in Oakland with some very progressive ideas. See what happened to most of those A’s pitchers after they left?By Mr. Baseball
July 2, 2008 1:11 AM | Link to this
Speaking of great pitchers pitching on losing teams, there’s the example of Steve Carlton in 1972. He won 27 games for the Phillies that year — 27 out of 59 that the Phillies managed to win all season.By Pat
July 2, 2008 12:39 AM | Link to this
I’m always amazed when fans say a certain coach should be fired. We don’t see them do 80% of their job. Great post tonight, like always.