By Proud Working Man

February 21, 2011 5:12 PM | Link to this

As someone who has worked in the private sector nonstop since the 1970s, there’s something incredibly phony about the motivation at work here. For one, the premise about high taxes is a myth. Taxes have never been lower in my working years, and they’ve probably never been this low since WWII. Secondly, no one from the governor’s office is even making a prediction, must last making a claim, what savings are possible with this plan. Third, the 1990s weren’t that long ago, and we enjoyed a golden age in this community, state and nation when the richest segment paid just a few percent more, not on all of their income, but just the richest portion. The tea baggers seem hell bent to turn us into a third world nation of no police, no fire, no roads, no educators, but I guess we’ll take smug satisfaction with the Dollar General wages we’re all making. Please bring back the fiscal sanity of the 1990s, when we all prospered.

By James

February 21, 2011 6:13 PM | Link to this

If you believe that this bill has anything to do with fiscal responsibility or with “sharing the burden”, you are willfully delusional. Recall that one of candidate Kasich’s top priorities was, in his own words, to “break the backs of the unions.” Economic hardship in Ohio has given him the diversion he needs to pit working folks against one another. This is nothing more than a war on the middle class, divide and conquer. Be very careful about the rhetoric coming from those who support SB5. They think we don’t read, that we’ll take any soundbite they throw our way. But we are smarter than this. They could fire every Ohio public employee tomorrow and still not make a dent in the Ohio budget deficit. So why break the unions? Because they believe that this, and of course the district gerrymandering heist they’re about to pull off this year, will make Ohio a permanent Republican stronghold. And they’re willing to take down the working class in order to do it. They don’t care about us; they care about politics. Don’t be fooled!

By FOR 5

February 21, 2011 11:01 PM | Link to this

Willfully delusional best describes those against House Bill 5 as they either ignore or distort the bill’s benefits and these simple facts: Ohio has billions in debt; Moody’s cut its ratings as a result forcing higher borrowing costs; and, Ohio’s pensions are severely underfunded. The latter of which was exacerbated by pension boards using 8% annualized returns to justify lowered retirement ages and increased payouts. Taxpayers already pay up to 24% of a public employee’s income to cover pension’s costs, yet unions and their funds had the audacity to seek even more. Working Man’s distorted views of taxation says he’s okay with it, but Ohio’s rise in state and local tax burdens on individuals to 7th highest in the nation proves him wrong. As does his exclusion of Ohio’s ranking as 47th in the nation for business taxes. Ohio’s already lost enough jobs due to costly tax policies and productivity gains or do opponents to this bill somehow think raising taxes more will help? Now, surrounding states would love that as they’ve already benefited from better policies and rankings: IN 12th, MI 17th, KY 20th and PA 27th, exactly why foreign auto manufacturers went elsewhere despite Ohio citizen’s automotive expertise. Sorry, try as James, Working Man, et al will to ignore, deny and distort the facts, but a wealth of facts are undeniably against the rubbish they seek to sell now. Exactly why House Bill 5 will pass as it restores fiscal order, delivers real benefits, returns power to where it belongs – with the people of Ohio versus its unions, and better allows this state to use its limited resources to serve the people of Ohio first instead of its unions.

By James

February 22, 2011 4:16 PM | Link to this

Thank you, FOR 5, for providing an example of the very rhetoric I warned against. You have your talking points down. If you are middle class, you are the perfect parrot. They love your bitterness. They’re counting on it actually, because it makes you forget who really is taking all your money.

By John

February 22, 2011 4:22 PM | Link to this

I have been teaching 21 years. A simple thought. If FOR 5 thinks teachers make too much money and have it so good, why hasn’t he gone into teaching? All it takes is a degree (then countless continuing education hrs. 6 semesters every 5 years out of pocket cost around $2000) And don’t forget the holidays..paid..NOT…I get a salary for 185 days..It is a good salary but it is divided up over 12 months to allow the district to keep more of my money and earn interest, rather than be broke. And if SB 5 passes I can go from 15 sick days a year to zero…so when one of the little ones comes in with the croup and coughs all over me I can take off without pay. Even better because parents drop the ball at home you can pay me based upon merit. When a kid fails a standardized test I should have my pay docked because I forgot to feed them, get them to bed on time, make them study at home AND wake them up for school. I agree the OEA is an awful organization and if the bill simply eliminated the requirement to belong to a union I would say YEA, let’s go. But going from what we have to NOTHING in one fell swoop is crazy. At least stage this change in and allow those of us who are close to retirement to make changes financially or plan on teaching longer. By the way, what is the point with allowing teachers to strike BUT the district can hire replacements? What is the point? On the other hand if you make teaching have such lousy benefits try to find someone who will willingly spend over $100,000 for a four year education that gets them a salary of $23,000 per year…oh yeah…

By Education Is Important

February 22, 2011 6:39 PM | Link to this

Where are all of Ohio’s jobs? India, China, Mexico, etc. Are they smarter than us? No. They will just work cheaper. If we destroy the unions, take away the little pay a police officer and fireman gets and let teachers be fired if their students don’t learn who will send their children to a school where there are new teachers every year? Who can afford to pay for a private education? It won’t be anyone in Ohio because we won’t have the education or jobs here to help us afford it! Education is valued by Asians and they out perform us. Education is valued by Finland and they excell. The way for our state and country to be prosperous again is through education and a UNITED Nation. Let’s support each other and vote no on 5.

By Denise

February 23, 2011 8:38 AM | Link to this

Vote no on 5? Can’t say that I would. I support it. Should some workers have protection - yes but some unions go to far in their protection of their employees to a fault. If you work hard you should be compensated for it but not everyone should benefit from those who do which is the case with some unions. You have some union employees who benefit on the backs of others. You have many small business with unions which in my opinions any small business with less than 50 employees should not have a union and too much time in alot of cases is spent conducting union business on paid time.

By theshadow

February 23, 2011 12:05 PM | Link to this

Tax payers should not pay for unions, and public workers should realize, you work for the public, you know taxes from us little people who pay for your checks. So stop your crying and be happy you have a job, times are a changing and yes you are a minority and will make your selves even more so with your protest. No place in the constitution does it say you have a contitutional right to colective barganing.

By jd

February 23, 2011 12:05 PM | Link to this

HamiltonSchool Board is hopeing SB5 passes as is. Thursday at there meeting they will be takeing bids on union jos currently held by 67 employees. Our contract is up july31. SB5 passes as is then goodbye to the Custodial staff of yuor local school. Hello to what you get with out collective bargaining and Civil Service testing.

By John

February 23, 2011 3:05 PM | Link to this

@theshadow - While it can be said taxpayers pay for everything I own, the fact is I pay for the Union. I personally do not like the Union, I can do without it. But those people who have jobs in the private sector who think I get paid too much probably don’t understand the amount of money I have to spend to keep my job. Like doctors, nurses, and other professionals licensed by the state, I have to pay $200 every 5 years, every year if the bill passes as is, to remain certified. I also must take courses at my expense to stay employeed. If you will help eliminate those demands I might agree with a lot of SB 5. I worked in private industry and had a Master’s degree before entering teaching. That meant nothing to the state of ohio, I had to return to school to get certified. Talk about waste. And no collective bargaining is not in the constitution but it is a law. Every private employee in the United States has the right to organize and be represented by a union. If SB 5 passes I wont have that right and probably won’t have the right, as you do to be protected by the National Labor Relations Board, if I happen to be fired unfairly. There is a lot wrong with teacher’s unions…but where would we turn if at their own whim school boards decided to cut pay, add extra days, without pay, or simply fire me without cause. Give me the same rights as a private employee and I will happily encourage my representatives to vote for SB 5 … Teachers, Police Officer, and Firefighters deserve the same rights to be fairly protected on the job. That’s all I want to protect. SB 5, as it is, ends all of that. Even your private company can’t fire you unfairly, SB 5 doesn’t assure teachers the same right.

By Shovel Jockey

February 23, 2011 4:05 PM | Link to this

John, you assume FOR5 doesn’t already make more than you do. Maybe that’s why he doesn’t go into teaching. Let’s be honest, teachers are always whining about all the same silly talking points you mentioned, but they never want to debate the facts. First of all, if you think your 6 semester hours of CEU’s leads the league somehow, you are woefully mistaken. Engineer’s, Surveyor’s, Doctors, Attorney’s, and MANY other professionals need much more than 6 CEU’s to advance their careers. They also pay for it themselves. You can argue that “No” paid holidays crap until you are blue in the face. We don’t care. Your salary is annualized, but that may be far to esoteric for a simple minded teacher. YOU GET PAID HOLIDAYS, like every other salaried person in America. Let’s say for the sake of argument that your contract is 185 days… I will concede that point. 185 days X 8 hours adds up to 1,480 Hours of work. I don’t want to hear any whining about grading papers all night or walking to school uphill in the snow. ALL of us have to do that. In fact, I work overtime about 48 weeks a year. What do you do in the summer? Average teacher salary including benefits in Lakota School District is $79,000.00 Do the math professor John. That means those clowns make $53.38 per HOUR. It’s time to get real in Ohio. Teachers need to take about a 15% pay cut off the top. Last, I agree with you “not” being judges by the quality of the product. There are too many variables, and you touched on many of them.

By Edumacated

February 23, 2011 4:09 PM | Link to this

Teacher’s salaries and benefits have increased EVERY single year that the quality of education in America has declined. What a conundrum? Maybe we should try flippin that on it’s head.

By Foolishness

February 23, 2011 5:28 PM | Link to this

If teachers are the problem why are police and fireman being punished?

By Rick

February 23, 2011 7:56 PM | Link to this

If this is about solving a budget problem as stated because teachers make too much money, why, if passed as introduced, would bargaining over salaries still be allowed, but bargaining over working conditions would not?

By A Teacher

February 23, 2011 9:51 PM | Link to this

I would like to correct those that think that teacher’s salaries are always going up. Being a teacher in a public school system for the last 8 years, I have taken a pay freeze for 6 of those years. My only raises have come as I have paid for my own college courses to receive my masters and have made it to another “step”. Please do not assume that a teacher only works 185 days and only 8 hours a day. Most teachers do work countless hours at home, on the weekend, and through their “summer”. Yes, I realize that others in the private sector do the same, but they are compensated, with overtime. I realize our state budget is in need of being balanced. But, teachers are not your enemies. We are working hard to educate the future workforce. Yes, you could say test scores are declining and failing, but I would also ask you to look at the difference of standards in the last 20 years. A teacher was a trusted professional, who could make professional judgement calls as to how to prepare their student. Now, teachers are guided by state and district mandates to teach what they feel is best for their students, a teacher has minimal say in what happens in their classroom. As a result, test scores have declined. Again, teachers are not your enemy. We make sacrifices every day, every year, to benefit the community we work in. SB5 will not carry out the greater purpose it seeks.

By Just the Facts

February 24, 2011 8:53 AM | Link to this

Working Man, your taxes were lower when Bush 1 was in Office. (unless you are the lowest tax bracket) Clinton raised them, and Bush 2 cut them again, but not as low as they were under Bush 1. That doesn’t count all the additional taxes that have been piled on us. What about cell phone tax, hotel tax, shool levies, higher property taxes? There is a list of about 100 taxes that didn’t exist in 1970 when you claimed to have started working. You must be crazy if you think your taxes have never been lower. Are you homeless? Nothing is lower than zero I guess.

By TS

February 24, 2011 12:08 PM | Link to this

@Edumacated Perhaps salaries and benefits haven’t kept pace to maintain the quality of teaching that we need today. If all the “good” teachers now choose other fields, it leaves us with lazy teachers. If you know that your work and compensation is going to be constantly under attack, why bother going into the profession? Maybe we are getting what we pay for.

By John

February 24, 2011 3:03 PM | Link to this

@shoveljockey- You are wrong if you think I get paid holidays. I get paid for 185 days. If I work overtime, that is my problem and I deal with it. I don’t ask for overtime because I chose this profession. However, before I started teaching I worked in industry. 6 years in management and another 5 as a salaried employee. I know what it is like to work long hard hours without extra compensation, however, I had a boss who would let me take comp time when things were slow. No such thing in education. If I am out of sick days, or personal days, if I miss a day I get docked. Teachers are treated like professional employees on one hand but are paid like hourly employees on the other. If I miss a staff meeting at my school (usually an hour of time) I get docked a 1/4 of a day. There is no doubt that part of this move is to give political payback because the unions supported Strickland. I, and many other teachers did not. We voted for Kasich and have been loyal republicans most of our lives. Most likely that will change. Again, I see the problems and believe that there should be some changes…but not all at once and not every right. Again, private business workers, if fired, can appeal their case to the National Labor Relations Board. The changes SB 5 is calling for leave no doubt that police, firefighters and teachers would have no recourse for an unfair labor practice. I am all for eliminating the union, but all public employees need some assurance that we will have fair recourse if we feel we are unfairly treated. As for firing someone because of merit, do you really think that is going to happen? Maybe with teachers who are really bad, but the just as you find in business, school administrators who have NO BUSINESS background will find themselves unable to reward in a fair manner. And soon, you will find fewer and fewer people wanting to enter the teaching profession. That will simply lead to lower test scores because those of us who can make more money elsewhere will go there. Again, I have never complained about my money or benefits. I don’t believe in unions entering the public debate on social issues. But what in SB 5 will save the state money and create jobs? Nothing. The only thing SB 5 really does that is good, is allow the district to avoid negotiating health care. And most teachers understand that we have to make sacrifices to bring some sanity to this issue. Even some of the retirement issues should be re-thought. But public employees usually get the thankless job of cleaning up messes. Some of us protect you, some of us save your lives, and some of us teach. All three important to the public. These areas are NOT businesses and should not be treated as such. How much is it worth for me to help a student through a crisis at home? How much are you willing to pay me for those things that you remember most about your favorite teacher? If you want education to be a business then expect teachers to act like employees whose bottom line is to make money. Oh and you can contact your congressman to get them to repeal the IDEA. (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act) That way we can simply tell all the kids with ADHD or dyslexia or some other learning disability to buckle up or get out.

By FOR 5

February 24, 2011 6:44 PM | Link to this

Talking points, rhetoric you warned people about James? Nice try, but every one of the points I shared are far from dispute, exactly why you failed to challenge them. Your interest and John’s in my economic status and education is yet another typical, diversionary ploy. Though, hate to break the news to you both, but people are on to those tricks too. And, they certainly won’t work in my case. So, while not any of your business, please rest assured my graduate degree (spouse has them too), experience in business and years of observing govt entities and their finances from more than a casual view provides me with a more objective view than most, exactly why House Bill 5 - while not perfect, makes a lot of sense. And John, with all due respect to your years in teaching (I have many family in it too) your expertise is obviously not in the area of communication as not once did I write teacher’s make too much. But, the fact of the matter is some do, paying everyone the same (ex: gym the same as science) without regard to individual performance is also a waste. The list goes and if you take the time to look beyond your personal interest and at all of govt, you’d see where inefficient uses of taxpayers limited monies reside - though you likely already have more than a few you won’t share. You can also stop the fear appeals too as you won’t go to zero sick days, but stopping you from banking and selling unused ones, well that needs to go. By the way, let’s hope you’re not one of the teachers who’s decided to bring this fight into your classroom with signs as the party for the ones who’ve done it at Lakota is about to end.

By Tax Office

February 25, 2011 8:14 AM | Link to this

Proud Working Man, does your bong know you’re missing? Federal Tax rates are currently higher than they were when Reagan left office, and Clinton raised taxes three times. That doesn’t even count the dozens of use taxes that have been piled on since the 70’s. i.e. phone usage tax, water usage tax, gas usage tax, $0.50 tax on gasoline and climbing. I’ll assume you have been working “blue” collar for all your life. Respectable, but in reality, you aren’t qualified for a job that requires real thinking.

By Capitalist

February 26, 2011 12:18 PM | Link to this

Senate Bill 5 isn’t about destroying middle-class America or jobs, it’s about reigning in legislation that unduly forces ever more largess to a protected class of citizens – public sector employees. And make no mistake, they’re far more a protected class than the average middle-class Ohioan they try to wrap around themselves now for protection. Else: Their total compensation (pay and benefits) packages wouldn’t well exceed average middle-class Ohioans. Their job protections wouldn’t well exceed common sense and those already afforded to all Ohioans under state and federal laws. Their poor performers, dare say even lazy ones, wouldn’t be given raises equal to their top performing peers - a practice they celebrate. They wouldn’t be retiring nearly a decade earlier than the average middle-class Ohioan – even those with wealth. And, they wouldn’t be retiring with pension pay and health care packages that would require all other Ohioans to have more than a million dollars saved up to come even close. They slam trickle-down economics, yet argue what they make will trickle down to the rest for why they should get more. They vehemently demand a minority with wealth should pay more yet overlook the fact they’re demanding all ALL Ohioans pay more to support their minority’s “affluence” whether earned or not. They’ll even go so far to defend the status quo by saying all can join they’re protected class (become a teacher, a cop, etc.) to avoid the real point why SB5 is being sought: to reign in the largess this protected class increasingly enjoys at all others expense. And, anyone saying savings won’t result from SB5 is flat-out in denial.

By Seriously?

March 1, 2011 2:27 PM | Link to this

This seems to be a will of wits instead of an educated and factual debate. Those of you who have never taught before have NO CLUE what teachers go through on a daily basis. Teachers are no longer just teachers…they are social workers, counselors, psychologists, doctors/nurses, mediators, and even a surrogate parent to name a few. Education has changed so drastically in the past 10-20 years that it’s almost unrecognizable. With this being said, we continue to expect the best from our teachers…as well as for them to be the best…however, we seriously do not give them the credit nor the respect that they deserve. Are there bad teachers out there who do not deserve to keep their job due to their performance? Definitely! However, there are SO MANY teachers who go way beyond their means to make sure that your children are getting the best education they deserve! Many of them do not even get to spend quality time with their own children because they’re putting their students’ needs ahead of them. More and more mandates come down on the teachers, yet they are expected to continue their work with less and less pay/benefits. In most professions…professions, NOT jobs…employees are rewarded for their hard work…whether it’s through more pay, better benefits, etc. However, this doesn’t seem to be true for the teaching profession. I’m not sure why it’s ALWAYS the teachers who are attacked whenever a levy comes about or things such as this, but many times it’s not the teachers who derailed the system. They’re the ones trying to keep it going with little resources they have. It’s SO frustrating to hear teachers bashed time and time again when they really are just trying to make the world a better place for EVERYONE involved. I know that sounds all lovey dovey and all, but it really is the truth. I, personally, am against SB5 not because of the whole collective bargaining thing, but because it does take away from those who work SO hard to keep our community on track..and hopefully moving in the right direction. Everyone says, “Teachers are under-paid. or I could never do what teachers do.” However, when we’re asked to step up and help give them some stability, we run the other direction or change our tune. If you don’t like teachers, then so be it. However, if you were in their position, and were about to lose the ability to pay for your house/car/groceries/childcare, but were still asked to do the same amount of work…no, I take that back…more work, would you still be for SB5? Would you vote for it? If so, then that’s your right, but for God’s sake…STOP trashing teachers!

By nano

March 3, 2011 3:14 PM | Link to this

To those teachers, firefighters, and police officers who voted for Kasich: What did you think would happen when he was elected?? I am not a union member but am outraged by the Republicans’ actions nonetheless. Wake up, Ohio.

By Blucorsair

March 4, 2011 5:07 AM | Link to this

While most people do not have a problem with private sector unions, the exact opposite is true for public unions and the polls prove it(Rasmussen, Burke, Zogby etc.).Even FDR the patron saint of the Democrats was against public sector unions citing that it was’nt good for the country due to a lack of competition and efficiency. Perhaps, this is another reason why a predominent union face isn’t seen amongst the federal ranks of gov’t workers. Why should america make an exception for only a hand full of states that are in trouble financially and where the general population is bearing the brunt of Obamas failed economic policies? Obama is in fact the most expensive president in US. history and has inflicted inflation on fuel and food prices which have indeed affected the working man.We can also thank Bill Clinton and the Democrats who controled congress in 1994 for ratifying NAFTA and GAT which sent more jobs out of the country than all US. presidents combined. It is apparent that runaway gov’t spending must be controlled at any cost if america is to have any viable future at all. For those of you that voted for Obamas weath redistribution policies, all I can say to you is that it s-cks when it’s your wealth that is being redistributed! …..Welcome to the working mans world my friends!!!

By AAA

March 4, 2011 8:28 AM | Link to this

Kasich is from PA. Here’s a word for you. Jaggoff

By xxx

March 4, 2011 9:12 AM | Link to this

All this has done is pit the working class aginst each other,I guess I better start kisssing some a$$ so I can get that merit raise.Ohio taxpayers Please tell me what you THINK you will get out of this bill,then in detail tell me how this will save you money.Not what you have been told.Then tell me where this money willl go?Maybe the 20+ million tax credits to business that will pay you or kids 8.00 an hour.Good luck living off that.This will not help Ohio at all. We are pawns for the republican stratigey.Good luck fellow buckeye’s,we will need all we can get..

By Mike

March 4, 2011 11:17 AM | Link to this

Republicans love to sweetend deals to give tax breaks to corporations so they don’t flee the state to more business friendly areas. Why doesn’t this apply to teachers, policeman, etc.? Are they not worried about attracting the best for those positions?

By bob

March 5, 2011 9:48 PM | Link to this

Republicans can kiss my………….We have seen their “morality” in trade agreements.We have seen their “morality” in Watergate and Kent State.I don’t care if the elephant KNOWS he’s stepping on a mouse.The mouse is dead,as is Republican “morality”

By Monsieur

March 21, 2011 3:25 PM | Link to this

It is the responsibility of the individual to pay for health-care and retirment. Not,the government, your union, your industry, no ones but yourself. It is not that hard. Live within your means. If you a teacher live by the 60 40 rule. You don’t need to go on vacation every year, drive a nice car, non of that. You chose your job, I didnt.I pay my health-care 100% along with my retirment and everything else. No one is helping me, I dont need it. I am from France, leader of the government pays everything, it doesnt work there with the 30 million people it has, it surly wont work here. (Pardon my bad english)